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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:01 am 
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The update is now live and available for download

---== UPDATE FL2073: FLYING FORTRESSES ==---
By: Robert, Grumpy, Bollok & Von Sleepy
All made possible by: Bcamel (creator of the program used to model the airplanes), and Idunno (who has shared a vast amount of aerodynamical knowledge).


--= Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress series =-
The B-17F and B-17G have been fully remodeled. They should now be close to real life performance and can use a larger payload than before. The B-17F can now carry 9600 lb of bombs, the B-17G 12800 lb of bombs as per their historical max loads. Previously they were both limited to only 6400 lb of bombs.

--= Hitmaps =--
The hitmaps of all twin/four engine bombers have now been fixed. They will more accurately cover the correct parts of the bombers. Below can be seen an example with the black-squared hitboxes of the G4M previously quite out of place vs now with the hitmap fixes. If you aim straight for the elevator you will now actually hit the elevator etc.


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--= Hitpoints =--
With the hitmap fix, the hitpoints of all bombers have also been recalculated. The hitpoints are now set based on the hitmap volume size, construction material, known toughness/weakness etc for each part of each specific bomber airplane, rather than the previous generic hitpoint pool applied for all twin/four engine bombers, regardless of dimensions. The four engine bombers will have similar hitpoints as before, so players shouldn't notice to much change. The C-47, L2D and Ju-52 transports will be notably tougher than before since they are actually quite large, while the twin engine medium bombers will generally see an increase in hitpoints for the tail sections and be slightly tougher overall than before. The pilot will be somewhat better covered which should reduce the one-ping kills of bombers unless shooting at the cockpit from a realistic angle. You'll need to HO a buff from straight infront or slightly above, and it will be harder to get a pilot kill from underneath. This should better protect players who climb to altitude compared to lawnmower buff players.

The engines are now generally a bit more fragile than before, making the tactic of shooting at the bomber's engines an actual viable strategy. Previously the engines of four engine bombers had over twice the hitpoints of the fuselage of most fighters, making it a waste of ammo and nearly impossible to disable a large buff by going for the engines. Attacking the engines of a bomber was a prefered tactic in real life for ww2 fighter pilots, and while the engines are still fairly tough, it should now also be a viable tactic in game. This also promotes flying buffs at altitude since you can then easily dive out to put out an engine fire. If using lawnmover tactics an engine fire will be fatal as you can not dive out.

The hitpoints of all fighters and single engine bombers have already been fixed in previous updates, in the same manner as the bombers, but they have now been retweaked by using a better formula. For the vast majority of fighters there is no notable change, but larger fighters like the P-38's, Mosquitos, Bf 110's etc will now be notably more durable.

--= Slats drawbacks =--
Leading edge slats were previously modeled a bit to generously with full benefits but to modest drag/induced drag penalties. This has now been tweaked and all planes using leading edge slats will bleed a bit more energy when pulling high G's, which will affect their sustained turn rate negatively. The affected flightmodels are the: Bf 109's, Bf 110's, La-5's, La-7's, MiG-3, and Swordfish.

--= Stall speed reductions =--
A few flightmodels have had their stall speed slightly reduced for better historical accuracy. These are the:
* Hurricanes: 3-4 mph reduction
* Bf 110's: 4 mph reduction
* A6M3 & A6M5: 2 mph reduction (The A6M2 was already correctly set)
* P-47's: 4 mph reduction
* F6F-5: 3 mph reduction
* F4U's: 2 mph reduction

--= Trim span =--
A few flightmodels have had their manual trim span allowance slightly increased to allow for better trim settings when cruising and climbing manually (not using auto-pilot). This affects the P-38's, D3A2, B5N2, and Swordfish

--= Vehicle info =--
All fighters have had their sustained turn rate data updated in the Vehicle info menu. The turn data is now based on tests made at 12000 ft with 75% fuel. Previously they were made at sea level with only 50% fuel. The higher altitude turn tests should be more in line with ww2 turn tests which were usually done at mid altitudes. Please note these are sustained turn tests, i.e. turning for 5+ laps without losing altitude, and can not be compared to ww2 tests that only checks the turn rate and radius at the instant turn.

--= Spitfire XIVe =--
The Spitfire XIVe now has 3 boost stages, with a +18 lbs manifold pressure boost stage added for Bst2.

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--= Fw 190A-1 and Fw 190A-2 =--
The A-1 and A-2 have had their engine WEP setup rebuilt. The WEP stages of these planes were previously estimated to generous in BHP and have now been set according to better speed data found.

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--= MiG-3 =--
The MiG-3 now has the correct max AoA benefit modeled from having leading edge slats. This should improve it's turn rate, altough it's still best used as a boom n zoom plane, not a turn fighter.

--= Mosquito series =--
Except for now having more hitpoints with the hitpoint fix as written above, the Mosquito series now also have the boost stage info standardized in the HUD (type of boost, manifold pressure, minutes before overheat).

--= Skins =--
* The Spitfire Ia *87 oct now has a better looking default skin.
* The Spitfire Vb now has the "133 sqn RAD Don Blakeslee" skin as it's default.
* The Bf 109E-1 now has the "Red 14" skin as it's default, and a new "Yellow 10" skin.
* The Bf 109E-3 now has the "Yellow 15" skin as it's default.


---== THE BOEING B-17 FLYING FORTRESS SERIES FULL REHAUL ==---
The B-17 Flying Fortress is an iconic bomber and has been featured in several movies. It was a large four engine bomber armed with an arsenal of .50 cal machine guns facing in every direction. The Flying Fortresses were though adversaries for the Axis fighters and forced the Luftwaffe to arm their interceptors with heavier cannons. Still, without fighter cover, even the B-17's took heavy losses when deep into Germany, but once the Mustangs could provide escort all the way to target and back, the dwindling numbers of Luftwaffe fighters could do little to prevent the Allied bombardments of Axis facilities. Both the B-17F and the B-17G are powered by four Wright R-1820-97 Cyclone engines, each able to produce 1240 hp at 15000 ft. The engines have a very good high alt performance, and a clean B-17 might even be able to outrun several interceptors, those with poor high alt performance, at the Fortress' maximum altitude. A clean B-17 at low fuel can get above 37000 ft. The Flying Fortresses are now able to use external 1600 lb or 2000 lb bombs under the wings, and has a wide array of loadouts. The B-17F can carry up to a limit of 9600 lb of bombs, while the B-17G has an impressive max payload of 12800 lb. As such they now carry their historical max payloads, while previously both B-17's in Warbirds have been limited to only 6400 lb. The B-17 is quite easy to fly and the stall is mild. Do note though that the B-17's are now realistically modeled, and players can no longer fly at zero throttle for an extended time without stalling out.

Also do note: The structural G limits are now set to realistic numbers. Do not go into a steep dive with heavy up-pitch trims. Reduce the trims or the pull out might break the plane apart. Remember this is a heavy bomber, not a fighter.


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<S>
/Robert


Last edited by Robert on Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:25 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:11 pm 
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Sounds great lads. Cant wait to fly the difference!! One question. Can you double check the 50 cal ammo rounds allotted per station on the b17's? It has always seemed a bit low .. My pop was a bombardier on them and many years ago when I was explaining this game to him I asked him if they ever ran out of ammo while fighting cons and he said no, not that he could remember..He said they always loaded several additional boxes of 50 cals and just grabbed another when needed. He didnt know the exact count but it certainly was more than the 300-500 per station we have. The nose gunner gets 1000 rounds and this would seem a more logical number for warfare.. Didnt see the ammo mentioned so while you are being so thorough please take a look and verify this is accurate. Thx!

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 4:05 pm 
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Rgr that, sir. When rebuilding the B-17's I checked for ammo count. In the new FM's players should not run out of ammo except on rare occasions, especially not in the B-17G. All machine guns are .50 cals except the nose guns of the B-17F. The official ammo count numbers used for the B-17's are:

B-17F:
1500 rounds (.30 cal), nose
500 rounds, waist right
500 rounds, waist left
1000 rounds, upper dorsal
1000 rounds, ball
400 rounds or 1000 rounds, tail

Note: British documents show 400 rounds total for the tail turret (200 rpg). However the B-17E evidently had 2x500 rounds ammunition boxes for the tail turret, so logically the B-17F should have this capacity. Below is from a source regarding the armament of the B-17E:

"(6)TAIL GUN — A twin .50-caliber flexible gun is installed in the tail. The tail gun enclosure is accessible from within the airplane, and is at the extreme rear end of the fuselage, beneath the rudder. An adjustable seat and kneeling pads are provided with a 500-round ammunition box at each side. A remote sight is provided in the installation to permit the gunner to kneel upright while in action."


B-17G:
610 rounds, cheek nose
730 rounds, chin
600 rounds, waist right
600 rounds, waist left
1300 rounds, upper dorsal
1000 rounds, ball
1130 rounds, tail


Cheers!
/Robert


Last edited by Robert on Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:01 pm 
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great job !

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:34 pm 
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Thanx Robert. I knew it was low! BTW, Now that the hit boxes have been modified how does the Buff tuff setting apply now? I suppose we will have to revisit the current settings to see what is more a realistic number now so damage is incremental and they wont explode and just dissolve into dust when hit in the tail.. Hopefully no more PK's from the 6 attack.. Will the buff tuff still control the gunners positions? It would be great if you could separate them from that so their tuffness isnt directly related to the hardness settings. It should take the same amount of hits to disable the tail gun or turret regardless of the buff tuff settings, amirite?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:56 pm 
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WOW Robert! You sure don't let any grass grow under your feet! That's a massive amount of much needed changes across the board- well done!


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:01 am 
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Finn wrote:
WOW Robert! You sure don't let any grass grow under your feet! That's a massive amount of much needed changes across the board- well done!


Truer words were never said!
Thanks for all of your efforts.
<S>


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:26 pm 
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Now just check the stall speeds on the spitfires, and align them with their POHs and I'll be happy.
:)
finn


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 5:47 pm 
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Finn wrote:
Now just check the stall speeds on the spitfires, and align them with their POHs and I'll be happy.
:)
finn

<S> sir!
See my two latest post in the Spitfire XIV thread for my two in depth answers regarding the Spitfire stall speed in Warbirds. The whole Spitfire series have had their liftco set to match the stall speed of the thorough NACA test of a Spitfire Va. This test shows 77 mph IAS at 6184 lb for power ON. This results in 89 mph at 8288 lb, which is the weight of the Spitfire XIV at 75% fuel.

The NACA test can be found at:
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi ... 092581.pdf


Cheers! :)
/Robert


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:16 pm 
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Its not the B17 but would it be possible to have a look at the lethality settings for the 303's in the Lancs ? Lately it seems that cons are absorbing massive amounts of hits from them (tail gunner Lancs) with not so much as an oil or gas leak. Cant stay alive long enough to hurt a 190 before it blows you out of the sky.. and thats at d5 and closing while locked on and seeing a steady stream of hit sprites landing. They used to be stronger awhile back but something has changed.. as it does regularly and sometimes even unprompted in this game.. Thanks!

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