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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:30 am 
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<S> all!
In order to improve the game balance the Spitfire XIVe is now only available at one rear LAF airfield per side. In the current Tunisia map these fields are F10 and F24.

While the Spit XIVe is modeled quite close to historical performance, this fighter is simply somewhat of a game balance issue since it features a low wingloading, fairly low weight, great wing efficiency and a monster inline engine rated at 2200 hp with 150 grade fuel (Compare this to the heavier P-51D's max output of 1810 hp with 150 grade fuel). This allows it to outturn and outclimb all other late war fighters while also having a similar or better top speed.

Hopefully this field limit fix for the Spit XIVe should make it more attractive to fly the other late war fighters as the match-ups should be more balanced when not 2/3 of all pilots are flying a Spit XIV. The Spitfire LF IXe is of course still available at all fields and one can always bring a Spit XIV to the fight if one doesn't mind to fly from the rear LAF field to the combat area. Also as a result the side with their "backs against the wall" will slightly benefit from this fix since they'll have closer access of the Spit XIV to the frontline than the side in possession of a majority of the map.


<S> and all feedback is welcome!
/Robert


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:07 am 
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What about the f4u4? Or the other fast, climb like monkeys aircraft?
The spit 14 in wb has very little wep- a choice only between 18 lbs and 21 lbs rather than from 9lbs to 25 lbs of boost and can't catch an F4u4 or a FW190 Dora at low alt.
I'd say the F4u4, which carries a lot more ammo, a much heavier ordnance load and has very late war performance is more of a game un-balancer than the Spit 14. I've seen players close a medium airfield with a single f4u4. Can't do that with a spit 14. . The spit 14 is the only airplane that has a chance to answer that kind of assault on a field. Move ALL the late war planes to rear fields, or move none of them.
Here's an unrelated question: why can a bomber put out an engine fire at about 250-300mph in a dive, while the same engine in a fighter needs over 400 mph to extinguish a fire?
finn


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:38 am 
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My guess is most bombers had fire suppression systems and fighters didn't.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:25 pm 
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Then why do bombers need to dive at all?
I don't think fire suppression systems are modelled. If this is a way of 'simulating' them, I suppose I can understand it. I don't agree with it, but I understand it.
Moving the spits to a single rear base in the current terrain is just utter bogus BS tho'. The spit 14 is not an easy ride to master. It's a terrible gunnery platform and requires great discipline and light touch to manuever effectively in a dogfight.
The F4u4 on the other hand, is an order of magnitude easier to fly, carries a LOT of bombs and rockets and climbs with and outruns the Spitfire. Are you sure you haven't relegated the wrong damn plane to the rear fields?
finn


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:54 am 
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Hmm, not sure if you have flown the F4U-4 much lately since the FL2058 update, sir. It now has ~9 mph higher stall speed, larger turning radius and a much harsher snap stall behaviour. It's still a great fighter, but no longer the arcadish easy ride plane that it was before.

Regarding the WEP limits the Spitfire XIVe now has +9 lbs and +21 lbs for boost stages as was the typical recommended operational manifold pressure limits for Max continuous and WEP with 150 grade fuel. After a long discussion we settled for +21 lbs limit since the +25 lbs boost was mostly experimental and very stressful on the Griffon engine. The British pilots were normally only cleared to use +21 lbs for combat operation.

I believe the fire extinguishing is directly related to a planes max velocity structural limit. Not sure why but the code seems to require you to reach the speed where the plane starts shuddering in order to put out the fire. As such a Spitfire/C.205 will need a higher speed than a Bf 109 or a bomber in order to extinguish the fire.

Below are a few comparisons from tests I've done. The Spit XIV and F4U-4 have fairly equal firepower although the F4U-4 has more ammo and a better payload for jabo strikes. To me the Spit XIV seems far better from a dogfight perspective though. With two equally skilled pilots the Spit XIV should win a duel 9/10 times. It has a better top speed, stall speed, climb rate and much better sustained turn rate than the F4U-4, while the Corsair has a higher max AoA and can use combat flaps.

Stall speed at 75% fuel
F4U-4: 97 mph
Spit XIV: 89 mph

Stall behaviour
F4U-4: semi-violent snap stall
Spit XIV: Fairly gentle wing drop

Climb time 0-15000 ft at full WEP
F4U-4: 4.4 minutes (3409 ft/min average)
Spit XIV: 3.0 minutes (5000 ft/min average)


Image


Image


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:41 pm 
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Jeesh guys. After waiting 20 years for the FM revision of the Spit 14 to where it actually is flyable again we cant even fly it when wanted now? What happened to the RPS? That would at least make it available when it should be.. Gotta be a better solution..

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:29 am 
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With 20-25 people left in the main there is no one driving the bus. Stupid gameplay has driven all the sim people away. The gamers are about to shove the knife the rest of way into the Sim. :(


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:28 pm 
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Clearly the relegation of the Spit 14 to useless deployment areas (Reds have been largely without the spit14 since it's only available from one field, and that one is always captured early by the greens) is driven by somebody's agenda. I say again, the F4u4 has a far greater influence on game playt than the spitfire. It's ammo load is heavier, and consistent to the last shot, while the spitfire's cannon vary from useless to adequate from day to day, and once they're done, the spit is basically out of guns. Again, the corsair can close a field by itself. The spit can't. I have flown the f4u4 a lot- more than the spit 14 certainly, and I still find it an easier ride to take to the edge and shoot from than the Spitty. The spitty is extremely hard to shoot from in a turn as it's very twitchy on the controls and far more likely to red and black out if mishandled than is the corsair.

So whose agenda is this? It's clearly not, as I believe I have shown because the spit 14 actually unbalances the arena. Few people are skilled enough to get the most out of any of the airplanes, and the spit 14 is not an easy plane to fly well. The spit V and IX are both better in a turn fight. I had a five kill sortie in a Spit V the other night, and I've never done that in a spit 14. What the 14 IS really good for is getting to alt fast to defend a field, and that's about it. So Whose agenda is IEN really following here?
There is NO reason to limit the Spit to rear fields other than due to the whining of players who don't like it interrupting their vulching and jaboing. This is just about the last straw for me. I have a competing sim loaded on the computer, and after 20 plus years in WB, I'm just about ready to leave it for the other game.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 11:52 am 
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Quote:
...while the spitfire's cannon vary from useless to adequate from day to day...
Sorry but this sounds like problems with your connection. There is no one changing the guns settings of the arena from day to day.

Quote:
So whose agenda is this? It's clearly not, as I believe I have shown because the spit 14 actually unbalances the arena.
Yes it really does unbalance the arena. This from an air-to-air perspective. Maybe the F4U-4 is a ground attack problem and needs looking into, but why on earth should that prevent fixing the balance issue with the Spit XIV? I can not see the logic in that. The Spit XIV is hands down the best dogfighter in Warbirds and is a major issue for anyone wanting to fly another fighter. Why does everyone otherwise fly it? Yes it's a bit more twitchy than a F4U-4 in the controls, but a Spit XIV pilot flying at 70% of his planes edge can easily outfly and outturn a pilot flying at 90% of the edge of any P-51, Yak, Lav, P-38, F6F, Bf 109, N1K1 or Fw 190 in a dogfight.

The agenda is none but a game balance decision that really felt necessary. This since loads of players have been complaining about nearly everyone upping a Spit XIV all the time. I've heard several jokes that the sim should be called Spitbirds instead of Warbirds. Maybe the Spit XIV should be allowed from 2 fields per side so that capturing one of the rear LAF's doesn't prevent the other side from using it. This is however something that must be learnt from observing and experience. If you've ever tried to help design a game, you'll know it takes time to get things perfect.

Quote:
What the 14 IS really good for is getting to alt fast to defend a field,
Let's meet up in the arena some day, you flying a random late war plane and I will show you what the Spit XIV can do. Yes it has a few weaknesses, but it's strengths far outweighs these if you fly the plane correctly. Unless the enemies have a Spit XIV of their own I've several times been able to fight 1v3 and still win when flying it. You claim that a Spit V and IXe can outturn a Spit XIV... Yes they can, and a Fokker D.XXI, I-16 "Ishak" or A6M2 will also outturn a Spit XIV, but they have not even close to the performance in all other areas that the Spit XIV has. The data below is from turning tests I've recently ran. There are a few late war fighters that can almost match the Spit XIV in a turn fight, but the Spit XIV easily holds an edge over those regarding top speed and climb rate. The other late war fighters of similar top speed as the Spit XIV don't even come close to it's turn performance. As such I completely disagree that it's only good for climbing.


Image


I consider myself a pretty skilled pilot and I enjoy flying different planes in the arena. I have often experienced trying to duel Spit XIV's 1v1 in a Yak, Lav, P-51, C.205, P-38, F6F, Fw 190 etc. Even against average pilots I've unfortunately learnt that my best chance is to simply run away before the Spit XIV can get close. Then if other friendlies join the area I can come back when the Spit XIV is busy fighting someone else so I can boom n zoom it. But 1v1 it hardly matters what I do. Even if I manage to outsmart my opponent several times in the fight, the Spit XIV pilot can often just go full wep and crank the stick back and there's almost nothing I can do but see him get right back on my six all over again. How do you then think an average pilot in a random plane feels when fighting 1v1 against a Spit XIV? Does this sound like good fun for people who want to fly the other planes of ww2? Please try to think from a larger perspective than just your own. Just because you like flying the Spit XIV doesn't mean that everyone else wants to be forced to fly it in order to stand a remote chance. I've been observing the arena since limiting the Spit XIV to the rear fields, and now I see way more other fighters being used since they now actually stand a chance in the match-ups. To me, a larger variety in ww2 fighters being used is a good direction for the game to head.

Also please explain why you must fly only the Spit XIV or otherwise threaten to leave the game. Is it because the Spit XIV is the plane of your childhood dreams, a relative of yours flew it in ww2, or is it simply because it gives you the best chance of success in the Arena? To be completely honest it is somewhat irrelevant if the F4U-4 is extremely good for ground striking. That is another issue that will need examining if it needs a solution of it's own. The Spit XIV rear field change is for adressing the Spit XIV issue. It is often easiest to fix one problem at a time, you can't solve every single problem in one go.

-------------------------------------

Let's actually do a thought experiment. You are a game designer of a competitive shooter game. The suggested characters that players can choose freely among in the game are the one's below.

RAMBO
Speed: ✰✰✰✰✰
Agility: ✰✰
Guns: ✰✰✰✰

THE NINJA
Speed: ✰✰✰
Agility: ✰✰✰✰✰
Guns: ✰✰✰

THE BRITISH BULLDOG
Speed: ✰✰✰✰✰
Agility: ✰✰✰✰✰
Guns: ✰✰✰✰

MR KLAUS VON ABERSDORF
Speed: ✰✰✰✰✰
Agility: ✰
Guns: ✰✰✰✰✰

THE BRITISH BULLTERRIER
Speed: ✰✰✰
Agility: ✰✰✰✰✰
Guns: ✰✰✰✰

Would you also think that "The British Bulldog" will become a game balance issue that needs addressing? I am sure the people who play "The British Bulldog" character will love to bully around anyone playing other characters and marvel in their own success and "skill", but is it a good game design to let players choose him freely? Or would it be smarter to let people who like a British character instead play his little brother "The British Bullterrier" who has the same look and all the same skills but with a little slower top speed? (i.e. Spit IXe vs Spit XIV). To me it's quite clear that "The British Bulldog" somehow needs to be restricted in use.

<S>
/Robert


Last edited by Robert on Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:00 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:53 pm 
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Good post Robert <S>

I tend to fly much weaker planes, but I usually don't worry too much about any F4U. If he has the energy advantage, then like any other plane, I've got problems. If I have it, then I can work it.
Against the 14, not much I can do unless the pilot is relatively inexperienced. The raw power gives it pretty much carte blanche.

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